Fresh Casino - Гравець незадоволений умовами казино.

Good day

I am in an uncertain situation. I would like to file a complaint against Fresh Casino. I felt it necessary to inform the casino first and reach a solution bilaterally first. I was very irritated by the casino's response (attached), so I'm wondering if it's worth filing a complaint at all. The casino informed me that I cannot claim back any deposited funds (even if the casino has violated the RG policy or something else, for example).

Before filing an official complaint, I want to know if I have a chance at all because I accepted the casino's terms with my registration. The terms of the casino state:

8.6 You will not withhold or cancel previous transactions and deposits to your account. Otherwise, you undertake to return these funds and compensate the Company for the unplaced funds, including expenses incurred by the Company when collecting your deposits.

Does that mean specifically that I'm not allowed to file a complaint under any circumstances? Because even if I was right and the casino made a mistake, would I still have to give the money back to the casino, including the fees? Do I have to return it even if the licensing authority agrees with me? How exactly is paragraph 8.6 to be understood? Is such a provision in the terms even allowed?

With kind regards

Dario

Guten Tag

Ich bin in einer unsicheren Situation. Gerne möchte ich Beschwerde gegen das Fresh-Casino einreichen. Ich hielt es für notwendig zuerst das Casino darüber zu orientieren und eine Lösung zuerst bilateral zu erreichen. Die Antwort des Casinos hat mich sehr irritiert (im Anhang), deshalb frage ich mich, ob es sich lohnt, überhaupt eine Beschwerde einzureichen. Das Casino teilte mir mit, dass ich keine eingezahlten Gelder zurückverlangen darf (auch dann nicht, wenn das Casino beispielsweise gegen die RG-Policy oder anderes verstossen hat).

Bevor ich eine offizielle Beschwerde einreiche, möchte ich wissen, ob ich überhaupt Chance habe, weil ich die Terms des Casinos mit meiner Registrierung akzeptiert habe. In den Terms des Casinos steht hierzu:

8.6 You will not withhold or cancel previous transactions and deposits to your account. Otherwise, you undertake to return these funds and compensate the Company for the unplaced funds, including expenses incurred by the Company when collecting your deposits.

Heisst das konkret, dass ich auf keinen Fall Beschwerde einreichen darf? Denn selbst dann, wenn ich Recht bekommen würde und das Casino Fehler gemacht hat, müsste ich auf jeden Fall das zurückerhaltene Geld dem Casino samt Gebühren wieder zurückgeben? Ich muss es sogar dann zurückgeben, wenn die Lizenzbehörde mir Recht gibt? Wie ist Paragraph 8.6 genau zu verstehen? Ist so eine Bestimmung in den Terms überhaupt erlaubt?

Freundliche Grüsse

Dario

Hello Mister_Schweiz,

Thank you very much for submitting your complaint and I'm really sorry to hear about your issue with Fresh Casino. Please allow me to ask you a few more question before we would move forward.

Could you please specify what is your exact issue with the casino? Why did the casino refer to this term, what happen?

Looking forward to your answer.

Regards,

Nick

A big request but at the Casino Guru: Could you send me a link where I can see the rules / regulations / policy of Antillephone? Those rules that the casino must follow from his regulator.

Hello Mister_Schweiz,

Please do not look at that term as the casino would never ever refund any deposit. It all depends on the request of the player and if it's reasonable. Unfortunately, at your case you are not eligible for a refund that's why they rejected your request. Unless a country is not restricted by the casino terms, you can register and play from there. It is completely up to the player to know the regulations of it's own country and once you lost your money the casino has no reason to refund anything. If you would win any try to withdraw your balance, you would get it as you could register and play there with no problem. It is always up to the casino whether they allow a player or not and once you registered you play as a normal player from no matter where.

As mentioned above, there is no reason for the casino to pay back any refund if you lost your money there. Is there anything else we can assist you with?

Good day

Thank you for your message. Either my messages have not been carefully read and studied, or I have expressed myself unclearly.

I know that I am not entitled to a refund of my deposits as it is my responsibility whether I am allowed to play in my country or not. That is not the problem. But I have said that clearly.

My complaint was (I repeat it again): I am complaining about paragraph 8.6 of the Fresh-Casino T&C and I believe that this paragraph violates the license terms of the licensor. I do not accept that my complaint will be rejected on the grounds that I am not allowed to file a complaint.

I also sent a screenshot where Fresh-Casino confirms that they are not allowed to claim back already deposited funds under any circumstances. Not even when it comes to complaints other than mine. 1. The player has no right to claim back any money. Under no circumstances.

2. If he is still right and gets money back, then this money must be returned to the casino.

I repeat my questions and requests again.

1. How does Casino Guru view Article 8.6 of the T&C? Casino Guru has given the casino a perfect reputation and declared the T&C to be flawless.Unfortunately you did not respond to this question.

2. Violates the terms of the licensor?

3. I kindly asked if you could send me the Antillephone license agreement. Unfortunately, you did not respond to this request either.

I believe that every player should have the right to file a complaint and get money back if the casino has done something wrong (e.g. breaching RG policy) and not have to return the money if the ADR/licensor agrees with the player are.

Once again my complaint: I am of the opinion that the casino has violated the license terms with paragraph 8.6 and this paragraph is not only unfair, but also illegal. I therefore demand the invalidity of my contract with the Casion and the deposits back. 

I really ask you to read my messages and screenshots more carefully, even though I know you have very little time per complaint.

I really hoped that Casino Guru would be glad that I drew attention to this paragraph 8.6. If you don't have time, I ask you to give the complaint to a colleague.

Best regards

Dario

I see, I have no chance of making a complaint against any casino at Antillephone N.V. enter, it will always be rejected.

I stand by my opinion:

The casino's response - when I filed a T&C breach complaint - was this: "Please note that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms and conditions of the site. This is stated in paragraph 8.6."

When I asked if I could never get my money back through a complaint, the casino said yes.

To me, this is a deliberate misrepresentation, and misstatement and application of 8.6. Highly unfair.

Mister_Schweiz,

To answer all your questions in order -

1. The term 8.6., if you read carefully (You will not withhold or cancel previous transactions and deposits to your account. Otherwise, you undertake to return these funds and compensate the Company for the unplaced funds, including expenses incurred by the Company when collecting your deposits.) is related to charge back - the term basically means that if you request for a refund of your deposit (meant as chargeback) then you will have to compensate the company (by depositing them back as they were already added to your casino account).
2. No as why would it be unfair for the casino to ask for fund which were added to your account but was not paid for it (or was paid but there was a charge back requested at the payment provider)
3. Please try to contact them on this e-mail address - certria@gaminglicences.com

I have read 8.6 carefully and I agree with you. Article 8.6 just means no chargebacks are allowed. My complaint is that the casino does not read, interpret and apply this article in exactly the same way and I have explained and proven this in detail in the past messages with a practical example and with various documents and screenshots.

It doesn't matter what the article means in my eyes or yours, but how the article is used by the casino against the players. And this also means that the casino explains the meaning of the individual T&C to the players correctly and does not apply it incorrectly and in different contexts.

Casino Guru takes the following into account when assigning reputation. "We go over the terms and condition of each casino and look for unfair rules that could potentially be used against players. Any clauses we consider to be unfair result in a lower reputation rating for the casino".

Hello Mister_Schweiz,

I fully understand your concern regarding this term. However, having a term in the terms doesn't exactly means that the casino will apply it - we had many examples in other casinos for that. If they would ever use it against a player and would submit a complaint on it or even would just mention it on the forums or elsewhere, we would of course reconsider it and would act accordingly. We can't currently judge the casino for something that only might happen but did not yet.

Thanks for your patience Nick. I appreciate that very much!

I agree with Casino Guru: Article 8.6 only means that a player may not cancel or charge back any deposits that have already been made and if so, then only with a maximum commission of 10% (Article 8.13.4).

1. However, I do not accept that I made a complaint (here is your practical example) and was told by the casino that Article 8.6 prohibits me from making a complaint about anything.
2. I do not accept that sometimes a complaint of mine has been rejected with reference to Article 8.6.
3. I do not accept the explanation of the casino and the licensor that Article 8.6 also serves: " The objective of the rule (8.6) is to avoid unnecessary discussion on consent, since that would be agreed upon in T&C. That includes your confirmation of being an adult, not addicted to gambling and aware of your legal status" This is not stated in Article 8.6 or does Casino Guru see it like the casino / licensor?
4. I do not accept that the casino explains article 8.6 to the players in such a way that under no circumstances can they file a complaint (prevention of filing a complaint, I submitted screenshots of the conversations).
5. I do not accept that my complaint was rejected with reference to Article 8.6 and the Casino explains Article 8.6 as Article 8.6 means: " Please note that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms and conditions of the site . This is stated in paragraph 8.6 "

Dear Nick, you said:

" We can't currently judge the casino for something that could happen but hasn't happened yet ."

I understand that, but as you know I have had real and practical experience of 8.6 in the context of a complaint.

BTW: When explaining how Casino Guru does reputation evaluations and how Casino Guru assesses casinos' T&C, Casino Guru writes: "We go over the terms and condition of each casino and look for unfair rules that could potentially be used against players ".

Thank you again for your patience, dear Nick.

Best regards

Dario

Danke für deine Geduld Nick. Ich schätze das sehr!

Ich bin gleicher Meinung wie Casino Guru: Artikel 8.6 heisst nur, dass ein Spieler keine bereits getätigten Einzahlungen stornieren oder rückbuchen darf und wenn, dann nur mit einer Kommission in Höhe von maximal 10% (Artikel 8.13.4).

1. Ich akzeptiere aber nicht, dass ich eine Beschwerde (hier ist dein praktisches Beispiel) eingereicht habe und mir vom Casino gesagt wurde, dass es mir aufgrund von Artikel 8.6 verboten ist, Beschwerde wegen irgendwas einzureichen. 
2. Ich akzeptiere nicht, dass eine Beschwerde von mir mitunter mit Verweis auf Artikel 8.6 abgelehnt wurde.
3. Ich akzeptiere die Erklärung des Casinos und des Lizenzgebers nicht, dass Artikel 8.6 auch dazu dient: "The objective of the rule (8.6) is to avoid unnecessary discussion on consent, since that would be agreed upon in T&C. That includes your confirmation of being an adult, not addicted to gambling and aware of your legal status" Das steht so im Artikel 8.6 nicht oder sieht Casino Guru das wie das Casino / Lizenzgeber?
4. Ich akzeptiere nicht, dass das Casino den Spielern Artikel 8.6 so erklärt, dass man unter keinen Umständen eine Beschwerde einreichen darf (Hinderung einer Beschwerdeinreichung, Screenshots der Konversationen habe ich eingereicht).
5. Ich akzeptiere nicht, dass meine Beschwerde mit Verweis auf Artikel 8.6 abgelehnt wurde und das Casino Artikel 8.6 so erklärt, dass Artikel 8.6 bedeutet: "Please note that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms and conditions of the site. This is stated in paragraph 8.6"

Lieber Nick, du hast gesagt:

"Wir können das Casino derzeit nicht für etwas beurteilen, das nur passieren könnte, aber noch nicht geschehen ist."

Das verstehe ich, aber wie du weisst, habe ich ja reale und praktische Erfahrungen betreffend 8.6 im Kontext einer Beschwerde gehabt.

BTW: Bei der Erklärung, wie Casino Guru Reputationsbewertungen vornimmt und wie Casino Guru die T&C von Casinos beurteilt, schreibt Casino Guru: "We go over the terms and condition of each casino and look for unfair rules that could potentially be used against players".

Ich bedanke mich nochmals herzlich für deine Geduld, lieber Nick.

Herzliche Grüsse

Dario

PS: Could you change the title of the complaint?

Maybe: Player is not satisfied with the casino's application of the T&C

PS: Könntest du den Titel der Beschwerde ändern?

Vielleicht: Spieler ist mit der Anwendung der T&C durch das Casino nicht zufrieden

I wish I could be of more help. I’m sorry we couldn’t help you to resolve this case, but please do not hesitate to contact us if you run into any issues with any other casino in the future. For the abovementioned reasons, I will now reject this complaint. Thank you for your understanding.